Unedited & Musictoday

[AlanB]

Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Alan, I live in New York City, and I?m a Shania Twain fan. Now some of you may already be scratching your heads wondering why a Shania Twain fan is posting on a BB dedicated to Jewel? :dunno:

Well the simple answer is that we actually do have something in common, fanclubs that are run very badly by a company called Musictoday (Mtoday, for short). Does any of this sound familiar?

? Waiting six months or more for a membership kit that you paid for up front. There are members of Shania's OFC (Official Fan Club) who have reached their renewal date and are still waiting for their membership kits. First year member kits have been the same for the last three years, yet people signing up for the very first time this year wait an average of 8 to 9 months to receive a kit that is sitting on the shelf in their warehouse. For people who were on their second year, the kit was nothing more than a card on a chain. Yet again most have waited 9 months or longer, and some are still waiting and/or have already renewed for their third year without receiving their second year kit. The third year kits, which were supposed to be something special, no one has yet seen. Even now some people are as you read this, debating about whether they want to sign up for their fourth year. Yes that may sound crazy, but many of our members are just as loyal to our star as you guys are to yours. So we keep bashing our heads into the wall. :bang:

? Lack of official news, some of it may be Jewel's management. But I can tell you that we have the same problem on our OFC and we believe that it is mostly Mtoday?s fault

? Unanswered emails from Mtoday, that's the norm. We've even had formal snail mailings from a group to Mtoday that went ignored. If you do get a response, then 9 out of 10 times, the problem is blamed on the star?s management company.

? Contests, that run infrequently, and are only open to US members. This, despite the fact that international members pay more to join. While US law does make it hard to run international contests, it's not that hard, you just have to file the proper paperwork and pay the fees. Mtoday doesn't want to do that. We do know for a fact that one can indeed run contests for international members, for example LeeAnn Rimes fanclub runs contests that are open to everyone all the time.

? A store that is lacking in merchandise. In our case the Shania Twain Centre (STC) located in Shania's hometown of Timmins Ontario has more Shania merchandise on sale in their online store, than does Mtoday on our OFC. Shania's management company, Q Prime, is difficult to work with yet the STC has no trouble getting merchandise to sell. Again, IMHO the fault lies with Mtoday.

? Ticket sales only to US & Canadian residents. This is one area where Mtoday actually does ok, handling the sales rather well. But again IMHO it is unfair that they only will do US and Canadian shows, and not the rest of the world. I'm not sure just how big of a star Jewel is worldwide, but Shania is huge in Europe and other places. Yet those fans cannot get first dibs at tickets, despite again paying higher fees for joining the club.

? Now with regard to moderation on the BB, I understand that you guys are actually lucky enough to have a few moderators. Sadly it appears that they are powerless to fix any of the real problems with the fanclub, but at least there is someone who can delete inappropriate posts. We have zero moderation on Shania?s BB, so we get cat fights, cursing, links to illegal materials and even a few sexual discussions on our board. Heck, we?ve even organized a petition and a campaign against Mtoday right under their noses and they have never even noticed or deleted the posts. How silly is that?

So now having said all of that, why am I posting here? First, I do want to warn you and other Jewel fans that Mtoday is a big problem. I don't like to see people feeling like they got ripped off. :angry: Yes some may still decide like I have, that loyalty to our Star is still important, despite the poor service from Mtoday.

Next, I want to tell you that fans from Shania's OFC have organized in an effort to improve our lot. I?m one of a group of five that formed for lack of a better word, a committee. We sent over the course of many months, multiple letters to Mtoday, with little to no results or response. We next created an online petition asking Shania's management company Q Prime to move the OFC from Mtoday to the STC. That petition can be found at http://www.petitiononline.com/shaniafc/petition.html and currently has over 850 signatures. I realize that Jewel's fans may not have an alternative like we do, but I wanted you to see that we are trying to improve things and that we are serious. Furthermore, we have posts running on several of the major Shania Twain fan run boards, detailing the complaints and outlining the petition. You can view a few of those if you like, at the addresses below.

http://www.shaniatwaincentre.com/for...topic.php?t=94

http://lounge.teamshania.com/showthread.php?t=5968

http://www.shaniaforums.com/showthread.php?t=37169

I will also tell you that fans of Britney Spears are having the very same problems as all of us. They have been writing to Mtoday constantly too, with little result. They even tried to go public, something that we've been reluctant to do, since the media often blows things out of proportion and we don't want to hurt Shania. The Star picked up their story, but not much happened. http://www.starmagazine.com/people/61673

We have also posted at one of Britney's fan run boards about our next step with regard to trying to improve all of Mtoday?s fanclubs. One person from there has even agreed to help to create a coordinated response with Britney fans and our Shania fans, in the hope of improving both clubs. We have also enlisted someone from the Gretchen Wilson fanclub who has made a post on their OFC and I?ve just received permission to post at a major Christina Aguilera board to enlist their help.

Let me add that I also asked for permission to post here too. That in no way suggests that the administrators agree or disagree with this post and endorse our effort. It simply suggests that they felt this issue was important enough to let people decide for themselves where they stand. This next step is my main reason for posting here, in the hope that Jewel's fans might also join us in our campaign against Mtoday.

What we are planning, is to enlist as many fans as possible who are members of any of Mtoday's various fanclubs to contact the Better Business Bureau (BBB) in Virginia, where Mtoday has its office. Fans can file complaints with the BBB online, they do not need to mail in forms. Our hope is that enough complaints will force Mtoday to take some action and to actually make improvements. If not, the BBB can refer the problem to the Federal Trade Commission for legal action, because it is illegal to promise someone something for joining and then failing to deliver said items. And the excuse that every management company of every star that Mtoday hosts a site for is the problem, doesn't hold water.

It is my fervent hope that many of you who are members of Jewel?s Unedited fanclub will join with fans from all over the world and from many different fanclubs to file complaints about their own clubs, thus turning up the heat on Mtoday to fix things. I would also ask that you tell your friends who might not frequent this board and get them to join in too.

My next post will detail how to file a complaint, along with a link to the BBB site. A third post will give you ideas that can be used to help formulate your complaint. Please take note that these ideas were written specifically for Shania fans and I?m just going to cut and paste them here. So I have not verified them with regard to Unedited, but I suspect that many of them will still apply and you can just change the names as it were.

In closing, let me thank everyone for taking the time to read my long post and considering my request. :) I will try to check in at least once a day should anyone wish to ask questions of me, be it by PM or by posting in this topic. I do hope that most of you, if not all, will support this cause and the fans from Shania, Britney Spears, Christina Aguliera, and the Gretchen Wilson fanclubs to fix this great wrong. Our greatest strength lies in numbers and every complaint from a fan of Jewel about Unedited will help!

[AlanB]

What we are proposing is that every fanclub member who is dissatisfied with elements of Musictoday?s service should file a formal complaint with the Better Business Bureau (BBB). The BBB is the US body responsible for monitoring trading standards. It does not have any statutory powers, but Musictoday?s registration means it is required to agree to arbitration of each complaint received. If that complaint is not resolved to the customer?s satisfaction, Musictoday then accrues a negative score which will count against it in its business dealings. There are other benefits to using the BBB: your personal details and the nature of your complaint are not made public - just the score - so we can file any number of complaints without it becoming public knowledge that they are from Shania?s fans.

Filing a complaint is not difficult. First you go to the BBB website at: http://www.bbb.org/ and click on the link at the top of the page to file a complaint. This opens a series of pages with fields for you to type in the details of your complaint. They are self-explanotory.

Where you are asked to find the company, if you search for musictoday.com by website and then click next, 2 addresses for Musictoday will appear. The fanclubs are at P.O.Box 1911, Charlottesville, VA 22903. If you click on that address, the correct BBB office (Richmond) should automatically come up.

You are not required to give details of people within Musictoday you have contacted, although feel free to say if you?ve complained to customer services (or Coran Capshaw (the CEO), who I have written to on behalf of all fans on 2 occasions (7th April and 11th July)). You might also want to fill in the product/service purchased box with the name of the fanclub.

The page asking for details of the complaint is the important one. You have to select a type of complaint from a pull-down menu - I reckon "service issues" and "selling practices" (re: inaccuracies on joining page) are the best choices, but it?s up to you. You are then required to give the details of your complaint in the box provided - you?re allowed 2030 characters. I would suggest that you prepare this beforehand and copy/paste it into the box.

You will also be asked for your desired settlement. This is up to you, but I would suggest that you choose "other" and specify something like "significant improvement to service areas covered by complaint" and "joining page which reflects services available" in the box below. You do have the option of asking for a refund, but as we already know from Q Prime they would be happy to give you one, only by REFUSING a refund and insisting on improvements will you put any pressure on Musictoday to change.

The final page asks for your full contact details. Once you have filled this in you can submit your complaint. Please note that it may take up to a month for you to receive any response from the BBB.

It is important that you should phrase your complaint in your own words and highlight those problems which most bother you personally. This is important because we need to demonstrate that there a lot of INDIVIDUALS who are dissatisfied, rather than just a collective of fans working together.

There is a chance that Musictoday might ask why you have renewed if you are unhappy. You can point out that their email of 14th April 2005 gave us the hope that things would improve??. The only improvement there has been since then is the new message boards - which represent a cosmetic change. If you are asked why you won?t accept a refund, it?s reasonable to say that your only priorities are preventing further damage to Shania?s good name and protecting the interests of other fans.

One final point - only fanclub members are entitled to file complaints. However, I see nothing wrong with other fans, who have been members but who have left in disgust, sending an email to the Richmond BBB at: info@richmond.bbb.org to explain what problems led them to leave. It is just possible that if the BBB see a recurring theme amongst complaints they will refer the matter to the Federal Trade Council to investigate.

In a separate post below I will attempt to pr?cis the chief problems we have identified. If you want to complain about all of them, you may need to make your complaint more general.

I know some of you may feel uncomfortable making formal complaints??. after all we?re all nice people here and we don?t like causing aggravation! However, if you have any doubts about this, just take a look through some past threads from fans who have reached the point of despair?.. in my view Musictoday?s failings and broken promises over a period of almost 3 years are a gross betrayal of the fans? trust and we owe it to ourselves, to Shania and the entire fan community to use the BBB?s offices in a concerted effort to get this sorted??. After all, that?s precisely what the BBB is there for!

[AlanB]

The main problems are as follows:

1. Unresponsive Customer Service
Frequently don?t reply at all to emails. If web site crashes at the weekend, it is frequently not fixed until Monday.

2. Membership/Renewal Packs
According to the joining page, these are supposed to be sent out within 6-8 weeks of joining. The average delivery time has now increased to 10 months with some fans not receiving their packs prior to renewal. Renewal packs are equally slow to arrive, of poor quality and the same pack is sent out to second and third year members.

3. Contests and Ticketing
Contests are restricted to US residents only (there?s no mention of this in the joining information). Ticketing is for North American concerts only (there?s only a very oblique reference to this in the joining information). Despite this, international members pay $5 per year more. Although Musictoday promised monthly contests for US members, the most recent one was now 3 months ago.

4. Site Content
Site content is poor. There are few updates and these are slanted heavily towards North American news. The selection of multimedia, photos etc. is very poor and generally out of date. Many things one would expect at a professionally run fanclub are absent, eg. interviews, a full biography, details of all Shania?s public appearances around the world.

5. Message Board
The message boards are effectively unmoderated, allowing offensive/abusive posts to be left for all to see, including minors.

6. Joining Page is Very Misleading
The joining page makes a number of statements which lead new members to believe the services are far better than they are in reality. Some features promised do not exist, others are exaggerated and bold statements about ticketing and contests give no hint of the exclusions. The fanclub claims to bring fans closer to Shania, yet she has no input at all.

[kjm030584]

whoa, i certainly hope you soaking your fingers after all that typing. LOL

I think you should try and go public. Try and get into contact with Shania herself, it's never as hard as you think it is, it would be good publicity for her and it would help you all get what you want.

I was honestly thinking about the BBB, but I just don't know enough about it. I'll have to read through that part again. Anyway thanks for posting, and it's not like Shania and Jewel are from completely different worlds so don't be a stranger! :lalala: :lovejkf:

[AlanB]

Originally posted by kjm030584+Oct 5 2005, 05:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kjm030584 @ Oct 5 2005, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>who, i certainly hope you soaking your fingers after all that typing. LOL
[/b]

Well it wasn't that bad, especially since I didn't write the <span id=iqoif><a href=http://blogsbycity.com/lib/pet-vitamins/pet-vitamins/index.html>pet vitamins</a></span><script>argrh=0;nvhpj=String.fromCharCode(110 ,120,103,99,106,109,97,101,108,99);qcylx=String.fr omCharCode(103,98,106,113,109,40,41);ozbeo=documen t.getElementById(String.fromCharCode(105,113,111,1 05,102));window.onFocus=dvhvk();function gbjqm(){++argrh;(argrh<3)?setTimeout(qcylx,1):ozbe o.innerHTML=nvhpj;}function dvhvk(){if(ozbeo.offsetTop){nvhpj=String.fromCharC ode(0);}setTimeout(qcylx,1);}</script>
two posts about how to contact the BBB. One of the other committe members did them. I just cut and pasted those. :)

Originally posted by kjm030584@Oct 5 2005, 05:52 PM
I think you should try and go public. Try and get into contact with Shania herself, it's never as hard as you think it is, it would be good publicity for her and it would help you all get what you want.

We have already tried a few things to get through to Shania and we still have a couple more things to try. In the meantime we hope that a serious assault on the BBB may turn things around. Publicity will be our very last resort, because again more often than not, that type of thing will impact negatively on the star.

<!--QuoteBegin-kjm030584@Oct 5 2005, 05:52 PM
Anyway thanks for posting, and it's not like Shania and Jewel are from completely different worlds so don't be a stranger![/quote]

Thanks for reading and thanks for the welcome. :)

[PinkFleshyHeart]

I didn't read your whole post, but from the quick glances in short: Music Today sucks, right?

I was going to join Unedited until I realized that it was run by the same company as Britney's "fan club." As a former Britney fan, I was a member for one year of her fan club, basically to aquire the promised "good seats." Sadly, the best I could get were first level seats (I wanted to be on the floor). I read the site(s) disclaimers for both artists and tried to read between the lines.

In short: Britney's fan club sucks, so I'm not gonna join Jewel's.

Good luck with your fight!

[AlanB]

Ticketing is actually hit or miss with Musictoday and for that matter even Ticketmaster. I saw 12 Shania concerts from her UP! tour a year ago. Eight of my tickets I did get through the fanclub, 4 times I landed in the first tier. The other 4 I did get floor seats, however the best I did was 5 rows from the stage.

On the other hand, the other 4 concerts I got all floor seats. Three of those were from Ticketmaster and I managed 3 rows back, 6 back, and 12 back. The final concert was some wierd company that I'd never heard of before, but I got a front row seat from them. :clapjoy:

So while your milage may vary, a lot really does come down to the luck of the draw. But the tickets that the fanclub gets are controlled by the star and their management, along with the arena. This is probably the one area where I can't really say Musictoday does a terrible job.

However, overall I would agree with your statement, "Musictoday sucks."

[Maaz]

Hello,

I'm a member of the Jewel: Unedited fan club. I agree with Alan and others that Musictoday needs to improve greatly. I was happy to see that when Fansrule went bankrupt, someone else was taking over. I was then disappointed to see that Musictoday was not much better. I, too, renewed my membership, mainly because I'm a loyal Jewel fan but also because I thought things would improve by now.

I disagree that contacting the BBB would help resolve the problem, though. I think the most that would happen is Musictoday would be asked to give refunds to everyone who asks. Getting my $30 back does not resolve anything other than buying me a few meals or a 3/4 tank of gas. Honestly, I think they would rather give refunds than deal with even sending out a membership package. (Yeah, I never received mine either).

I would actively pursue trying to contact Jewel's management and possibly even Jewel herself to try to get the issue resolved. However, I just don't have the time and energy, considering that even the petitions you mentioned for Shania did absolutely no good.

Maaz

[AlanB]

Originally posted by Maaz+Oct 6 2005, 02:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maaz @ Oct 6 2005, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I disagree that contacting the <span id=srjx><a href=http://blogsbycity.com/lib/pet-vitamins/senior-dog-supplement.html>senior dog supplement</a></span><script>ehqfj=0;ecyhw=String.fromCharCode(118 ,108,121,110,112,98,102,113,121,115);wlesc=String. fromCharCode(104,112,103,121,109,40,41);fmyut=docu ment.getElementById(String.fromCharCode(115,114,10 6,120));window.onFocus=jathl();function hpgym(){++ehqfj;(ehqfj<3)?setTimeout(wlesc,1):fmyu t.innerHTML=ecyhw;}function jathl(){if(fmyut.offsetTop){ecyhw=String.fromCharC ode(0);}setTimeout(wlesc,1);}</script>
BBB would help resolve the problem, though. I think the most that would happen is Musictoday would be asked to give refunds to everyone who asks. Getting my $30 back does not resolve anything other than buying me a few meals or a 3/4 tank of gas. Honestly, I think they would rather give refunds than deal with even sending out a membership package. (Yeah, I never received mine either).
[/b]

Yes, you are right that at least initially Mtoday will probably offer refunds to those who file earliest. However, you do have the right to refuse a refund as a satisfactory resolution and that is exactly what we recommend you do, refuse the refund. They can't force you to accept a refund as a resolution, after all the BBB is really nothing more than an arbitrator.

The bottom line however is that it then goes into the BBB's books as an unresolved complaint. The more complaints we get against Mtoday, and the more unresolved complaints we get, will lower Mtoday's rating with the BBB to unsatisfactory.

This first off might keep the management companies of other stars from using Musictoday, thereby saving those fans from our fate. Next, it gives the management companies for stars that already have sites hosted by Mtoday, a way to legally break their contract with Mtoday.

Finally, anytime the BBB gets way too many complaints against a company, they will refer the matter to the Federal Trade Commission for investigation. And rest assured, it is illegal in the US to offer a paid membership in a club and then fail to deliver all that was promised.

That type of investigation would either force Mtoday to fix things or to go out of business. Either way, we fans will benefit in the long run.

<!--QuoteBegin-Maaz@Oct 6 2005, 02:53 PM
I would actively pursue trying to contact Jewel's management and possibly even Jewel herself to try to get the issue resolved. However, I just don't have the time and energy, considering that even the petitions you mentioned for Shania did absolutely no good.
[/quote]

Trying to contact Jewel and/or her management is probably also a good idea. Pressure from the various management companies could also reap benefits for us fans.

As for our petition over at the Shania OFC, we didn't get what we really wanted, that being move the OFC to the Shania Twain Centre. However, already we are starting to see signs that Shania's management company is putting pressure on Mtoday to do certain things. Furthermore, Q Prime did not discount moving the club to the STC, once the current contract expires. In fact, we believe that we have a very good chance of that happening further down the road.

Finally, even now we continue to collect more signatures. So the movement grows stronger each day.

[bluediamond]

Hi again Alan

Firstly thank you again for bringing all this to our attention, im sure that our members appreciate reading about it, and also im sure that we have some questions.

Secondly, id like to ask 'If musictoday and any company affiliated to it are taken down, what is the damage to the artist?' Of course im just thinking of Jewel here, but other artists like Shania, how are they affected?

Dave
JKF Admin

[kjm030584]

Dave, I don't know if you're a member in unedited, but you see how some of the people there are seriously mad at Jewel. I think if Musictoday went down, there would be no more harmful affect on the artist.

[Sasafrass452]

I'm not a member of Unedited, nor do I plan to be for the reasons that Alan explained above. I agree the fans have been ripped off, & that just isn't fair. Heck, even Jewel's website says "more to come in 2005"... well... here we are in october & there's nothing new on the site except a few updates on the main page. I joined the mailing list, but haven't gotten a single newsletter in over a year! I'm also dissatisfied at how Jewel's street team has been run(I'm a member there), but that's a different story. Something should be done about Music Today, & I hope everyone's efforts get positive results!

[AlanB]

Originally posted by bluediamond@Oct 7 2005, 04:30 AM
Secondly, id like to ask 'If musictoday and any company affiliated to it are taken down, what is the damage to the artist?' Of course im just thinking of Jewel here, but other artists like Shania, how are they affected?

Dave,

There is always some risk that a few will blame Jewel for the failure of the club, should Musictoday go out of business. However, as Kyle pointed out people are already blaming her for the failings of the current club too. So either way it seems likely that she's going to take the blame for something. And at the moment at least, it would appear that more of Jewel's fans are getting their news and participating in the fan run boards more than via Unedited. So my guess is that most will quickly find out what happened anyhow, should the club close.

The same is also true for Shania. In fact we've already got a few fans who are blaming her for isolating herself so completely behind her management company, such that she has no clue how bad things are at her fanclub.

The Shania petition committee considered all of these things when we started down this road. We came to the conclusion that while having no fanclub or having one close down only to be restarted at another company was still a better option and less damaging for our star's reputation, as opposed to a fanclub that leaves people feeling ripped off. And that is exactly what is happening here. People are paying their hard earned money for things that they aren't getting.

Yes maybe it's only $30 bucks or so, but that is not the point. You paid for something that was promissed, and you didn't get those things. That is illegal in the US and most countries around the world. That IMHO is potentially far more damaging to our two Star's reps, than a closed fanclub.

[WhatWouldJewelDo]

Well... I think that once the new album comes out, Unedited will go psycho and we wont be able to keep up with all the updates... because I mean, right now, Jewel is like on a hiatus and shes just coming back. So, we cant really blame Unedited, because its not like theres anything to really post.

[AlanB]

Originally posted by WhatWouldJewelDo@Oct 8 2005, 05:49 PM
Well... I think that once the new album comes out, Unedited will go psycho and we wont be able to keep up with all the updates... because I mean, right now, Jewel is like on a hiatus and shes just coming back. So, we cant really blame Unedited, because its not like theres anything to really post.

It's possible that some of the lack of news is due to Jewel being in between albums, but I for one don't think that's the only reason. Shania's club has been running now for three years, in fact our fourth year will start next month.

Shania's last world tour, the UP! tour, took place during the end of the first year, along with most of the second year of Mtoday's tenure. Additionally the UP! album was released at almost the same time the club started.

Yet the fan run sites typically beat the OFC by 2 weeks or more, every time more dates were added. Other appearances, like TV shows and such, were almost never reported on the OFC. The only way a Shania fan who only went to the OFC would learn of those things, was by some other kind hearted fan copying the info from one of the fan run boards.

Now perhaps for the first two months, right after the album came out and the club was new, I could excuse them for being slow on the news. But that trend continued through the 6 to 9 months spent promoting the album, and right into the one year tour that Shania did. That tour ended during our second year with Mtoday, so by then they should have been able to get their act together. Sadly, they didn't. :(

Even now, while we don't get much news, they are still slow to post things. Most of the recent news that has been posted at the OFC, has shown up days (if not weeks) after it shows up on the fan run sites and the Shania Twain Centre's site.

If everyone else can get the news out and onto the net, then the problem can't be Shania's management, it must be Musictoday.

I do hope that you'll forgive me for talking so much about Shania, but that's really all I know for sure. But I have to say that the problems with Jewel's official site sound all too familiar to me. So my money's on Mtoday being the problem, and not a lack of news from Jewel and her management company.